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Trickle Down Revisited...

By Marc Sussman

Trickle down economics. A theory, of course, but its called exactly what it is – a trickle for most Americans.

Jim Hightower describes it as tinkle-down economics and though the visual might be objectionable, the essence is right on target.

Supporters of trickle down fondly remember the Reagan era (any administration would be fondly remembered at this point) but tricklers, like Larry Kudlow, can quote statistics. Well, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Many of us remember how hard the Reagan era was – its just true.

But trickle down’s time is now. Support banking; support Fannie, Freddie and foreclosure for millions of Americans. Support business and finance and eventually the “trickle” will get there – it’s a theory that has never trickled and never will.

Now there’s a bigger problem. The special 15% tax on dividends and capital gains is as trickle down as it gets. It’s an unfair tax benefit in favor of stockholders – and that may be you. The Walton family, with over $100 billion in WalMart stock, is the undeserving beneficiary of the special capital gains tax. If you’re progressive, an authentic progressive, you cannot support the trickle. You must support its repeal, even if hurts you in the pocketbook.

If we keep believing that market rallies defines our success, then we are lost. We need to adopt a new program, a different definition of success. With that accomplished, we become America in Recovery.

Comments

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"If you’re progressive, an authentic progressive,

you cannot support the trickle. You must support its repeal, even if hurts you in the pocketbook."

Why is that? Is there not more to trickle down that the capital gains tax?

"You must support its repeal, even if hurts you in the pocketbook."
Repeal only? Modification is not acceptable.

Why can't I be the liberal who defines what liberal means?

Proving my point

Thanks for illustrating so clearly what our problem is...Why is that? I'll tell you why. Sure, there's a lot more to trickle-down than capital gains, but the mere suggestion of its repeal certainly starts the spinning, doesn't it? Let me get the logic - since cap gains is not the only offensive and unjust provision in the tax code, why not start with something else? Something not so close to home, perhaps? Why not modify? Are we looking for an end run here?

The mega rich don't need additional economic incentives. The concentration of wealth has already reached historic proportions. Those in a position of wealth and power are hurting an increasing number of Americans who have very little. More importantly, you've clearly been fortunate.. but you may be missing something that money can't buy - gratitude....

By Marc SussmanJuly 22, 2008 - 1:24am

"Let me get the logic - since cap gains is not the only offensive and unjust provision in the tax code, why not start with something else?"
Try again. How about you start with your own logic as opposed to presenting a misrepresentation of mine? Although your statement may have been just a non sequitur and not a intentional misrepresentation.

"the mere suggestion of its repeal certainly starts the spinning"
Really? How so? Pssst… there was only one other comment besides mine when you posted your reply to my comment.

"Something not so close to home, perhaps?"
Nope but thanks for the favorable speculation.

"Why not modify? Are we looking for an end run here?"
No, I was suggesting an alternative to your repeal mandate.

I absolutely concur that mega rich don't need additional economic incentives. By Limbaugh standards I’m a communist. You see, I believe in a tax system that takes money from the richest and gives it to the poorest – if the richest don’t first do it themselves first. And I’m with Robert Reich. The mega rich would like to see us tax wealth not work.

"The concentration of wealth has already reached historic proportions."
Well gee, Marc, thanks for the information. ‘Historic’, like say 1929-ish? Try searching this blog using Dr_Billionaire and 1929 or Dr_Billionaire and Aristocrats. Or just make a bad assumption.

"More importantly, you've clearly been fortunate.. but you may be missing something that money can't buy - gratitude..."
I always say, if you're going to be judgmental, you might as well be uninformed.

Marc, I simply reject your assertion that to be progressive one must share your view on the “repeal” of the capital gain tax. And yes, I think it would be best if "progressive" changes to the tax code focused on other matters. I'd like to see progressive face down reactionary aristocrats and their ‘socialist’ ‘wealth transfer’ rhetoric on the estate tax. I'd like to corporate tax loopholes closed. I'd like to see progressive call attention to the effective corporate tax rate. I'd like to see the effective corporate tax rate move up away from its current 1929-like level towards the current state tax rate. If corporations were paying higher effective rates, I'd have even less problems with the capital gains and dividend rates. I'd be receptive to raising the social security cap and top marginal rates. I think these are winnable political positions.

I personally like reduced dividend and capital gain rates. Adjust/raise those rates and limit what qualifies as capital gains, sure. Entirely eliminate these 'beneficial rates', I'm opposed. I also think defenders of lower capital gains and dividend taxes have better arguments, then defenders of tax loopholes, offshore tax shelters, etc.

Of course you want to see

Of course you want to see those taxes reduced. They affect you personally. Screw everyone else.

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." Dwight Eisenhower

By MichtouJuly 22, 2008 - 8:09pm

"Of course you want to see those taxes reduced. They affect you personally."
Really how so? To what extent? Like Marc, you are speculating about my tax situation. My situation is such that I am much more likely to be personnaly impacted by higher marginal rates than I am capital gains and/or dividend taxes. And yet, I would support an increase in top marginal rates same as I support a hefty estate tax. But alas - I cannot be considered a progressive or call myself progressive because I might only seek to undue what George Bush did to the tax code. I don't feel compelled to undue all that Reagan did to the tax code.

Did I say I wanted those captial gain and dividend taxes reduced, or did I say I favor dividends and gains being taxed a lower rate (i.e., a rate below the income tax rate)? The later no? Did I not suggest actually raising those rates from current levels?

Fess Up

Doc,

You must admit your veiled opposition to the estate tax, and position on cap gains are the only issues that could impact on you personally. Maybe the handle you use throws us off.

By the way, any idea who engineered the current cap gains tax?

By Marc SussmanJuly 23, 2008 - 3:54am

"You must admit your veiled opposition to the estate tax,"
You seem to have an abundance of opinions regarding what other people think and should think? What percentage are formed based on insufficient knowledge? I don't oppose the estate tax, I support it. I'm offended by the aristocrat's use of the Luntzian "Death Tax" mantra.

"Maybe the handle you use throws us off."
Who is us? I've been posting on this blog for over four years. There are lots of posts you might examine in lieu of jumping to a conclusion based on a clearly silly handle. Historically, my handle has also mananged to throw off the occasional right wing troll. Cuz ya know, someone who post in the comments section of a liberal blog as Dr_Billionaire must NO DOUBT IRREFUTABLY be a Laissez-faire capitalist.

"By the way, any idea who engineered the current cap gains tax?"
The Gettys, The Rothchilds, Vatican, The Queen Mum and The Colonel before he went teets up? Tesla? German chemist, Dr. Hans Goldschmidt?

"Fess up" - your clueless about me. It's among the reasons I don't feel compelled to allow you to form my opinions for me?

Try searching this blog for Dr_Billionaire
and "even the underscore is a lie"
and "social security"
and "wealth"
and "estate tax"
and "tax cuts"

save some of that meat.

trickle down means only one thing, its throwing the bone to a dog, all the meat is already gone.

By getmad54 July 21, 2008 - 11:36pm

Nice analogy!

[I would add that it's like throwing one bone to a pack of dogs; sure, all the meat's gone. That leaves the dogs to fight amongst themselves over what's left.]

Fessing up to self-interest

Fund industry eyes Bush's Social Security plan Vanguard, Barclays other index fund cos. may benefit

BOSTON (CBS.MW) -- President Bush's plan to reform Social Security could bring a rush of investor cash to the U.S. mutual fund industry to manage -- $75 billion a year by one estimate -- and companies specializing in index funds will likely be the first to benefit, analysts said.

Bush, who has pledged to make Social Security reform a priority during his second term, advocates allowing younger workers to set up personal accounts within the retirement program in order to give them a choice in how the money is invested.

Despite what may seem like a windfall, the $7.6 trillion U.S. mutual fund industry is approaching with caution the prospect of putting a large chunk of the huge Social Security program in private hands. If lawmakers opt to offer individual accounts, investors must be protected and educated, the industry's main trade group says.

"Many participants in the Social Security system may have little or no experience with long-term investing," the Investment Company Institute said on its Web site, adding that the creation of an individual account program would need to be preceded by "a significant public education campaign."
[the country will need some Certified Financial Planners]

At least initially, the government is likely to see index funds - which track broad-based indexes such as the S&P 500 -- as appealing investment vehicles because "you need a big, safe kind of investment" and a limited number of options, Ken Worthington, an analyst at CIBC World Markets, said.

"You need a relatively limited number of options because the administration of 130 million very tiny accounts is extremely onerous and expensive," the analyst said. "So by limiting choices to index funds, you just let people participate in the market."

Potential big winners

Big purveyors of those funds - Vanguard, State Street Corp. Barclays - would have the best chance of winning government contracts to manage the money, Worthington said.

"They've got the scale to manage the money," he said, adding that Fidelity, the biggest U.S. mutual fund company, would be less well-positioned than Barclays.

Fidelity managed $41.9 billion in index fund assets as of Sept. 30, including stock and bond fund indexes. Barclays Global Investors, the investment management arm of Barclays PLC, managed $817 billion of index fund asset as of Sept. 30. The possibility of government contracts could be one reason Fidelity recently cut fees on five equity index funds, Worthington said.

"If they can get to $50 billion of domestic equity index assets, that puts them in the game," the analyst said.

Jim Lowell, editor of Fidelity Investor, an independent newsletter based in Needham, Massachusetts, also speculated that Fidelity's fee cuts were linked to the possibility of managing Social Security money.

"The wildcard was obviously the outcome of the election, but Fidelity is smart enough to be able to both do the right thing and the smart thing at one and the same time," Lowell said.

Fidelity spokesman Vin Loporchio said, however, that over the past year and a half Fidelity has cut fees and commissions on a number of products - including the equity index funds - in an effort to benefit its customers. The index fund fee cuts were unrelated to Social Security, he contended.

Worthington said that, as the biggest 401(k) provider, Fidelity is well-positioned to benefit from the second round of Social Security privatization. That should occur four to five years after the first round as accounts grow larger and more profitable owing to economies of scale.

"They deal with a lot of small accounts," the analyst said, adding that T. Rowe Price, another big 401(k) provider, is also likely to benefit.

Worthington, who came up with the $75 billion of manageable assets estimate, arrived at the figure by estimating that 100 million of 130 million taxpayers would opt to invest some of their Social Security money in private accounts over time. Assuming the contributions are capped at $1,000 a year, Worthington estimates the average annual contribution at $750.

To put the $75 billion into perspective, the industry took in about $200 billion a year in the eight years from 1996 to 2003, the analyst said.

Other considerations

Geoff Bobroff, a mutual fund industry consultant based in East Greenwich, Rhode Island, said the $75 billion a year may not be the boon it seems for the fund industry.

"If it's only good for a handful of firms, it's not good for the industry," Bobroff said, adding that even companies most likely to benefit might not want to. "These index funds aren't going to be happy with a lot of small accounts with high activity because it makes the expense ratios higher."

Robert Reich, Secretary of Labor under President Clinton, calls Bush's plan for Social Security reform "a very dangerous idea" that would bankrupt the system.

If I were to take what I actually knew to be true about a person’s profession and their professional affiliations, I could make some substantially erroneous assumptions I think? Especially if I gave no consideration to that individual's prior statements. And image the inferences I could come up with if I knew nothing about that persons profession.

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